PwC's Kim Jones on Improving Workplace Trust

Roula Amire:
Welcome to Better by Great Place To Work, the global authority on workplace culture. I'm your host, Roula Amire, content director at Great Place To Work. I'm so excited for you to listen to my conversation with Kim Jones, managing director of the Talent Strategy and People Experience at PwC. We talked about how listening without action harms trust, the power of middle managers, and how AI is creating equal opportunity at PwC, something I found to be very inspiring. Kim also shares what happened to her one day in 2022 when she couldn't remember parts of her workday. After 20 years of go, go, go, working on high-pressure projects in a fast-paced environment, she reminds us that the body does keep the score. It's a good reminder for us all. I hope you'll think twice about how you approach your day after listening to Kim. I know I did. Enjoy. Kim Jones, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on.

Kim Jones:
Thank you. It's so great to be here.

Roula Amire:
We are obviously fans of surveys and of trust at Great Place To Work, so I wanted to dig into some of the findings from the latest Trust in US Business Survey from PwC. There's a lot that's in your report, but let's start with your finding that leaders overestimate how much employees trust their companies. You found 86% of executives think their employees trust their company, but in fact, only 67% of employees say they do, and that gap is higher than it's been in the past, so it's getting worse. Why is that? Why is that gap so big and why is it getting bigger?

Kim Jones:
Yeah. Isn't it interesting how that happens, right? I think it's a few things, based on what I've seen and what I've talked to others from other organizations. 

One is that sometimes leaders forget that you can't just tell people what they should do. You also have to model it yourself, so there's a little bit of do as I say and not what I do. It's so important to model that behavior, and show that you believe in it, as well. 

Another thing that I've seen is there's lots of good listening going on, I feel, across organizations. At PwC, we have a listening program and platform, and sometimes, I think we fall into a trap of getting a lot of feedback from our employees, but then not actioning on it, not showing them what we're doing with what they're telling us and how we're using that feedback to make things better. Now, sometimes you need to be very explicit about the fact that, "Because you told us this, we are doing that," or, "We heard you, so we're changing A, B, and C." Sometimes that connection isn't organic. You need to point it out, but sometimes, I think we forget to make sure that we are doing something with that feedback or at the very least, getting back to our people about how we're using it or why maybe right now isn't the right time to do something that they've suggested. So there is sometimes a disconnect there.

Roula Amire:
We've talked about on this podcast and in our content at Great Place To Work, if you're not going to take action, don't bother asking.

Kim Jones:
Exactly. That's the point of the feedback. And sometimes when we decide, well, we can't do what they're recommending right now. It's so important to say something about it and to say why and just to come back to your people with what you're going to do.

Roula Amire:
Right. Or why you may not be able to do anything now, but you're heard, and you don't have to have all the answers-

Kim Jones:
That's right.

Roula Amire:
... but just acknowledging.

Kim Jones:
You can say that too. You can say that. It's okay.

Roula Amire:
You also found that the majority of executives, 86% of them trust their people, which is great. We want leaders trusting the people who work for them, but only 60% of people feel that they're trusted. And that's a big problem because perception is reality.

Kim Jones: 
Yes. 

Roula Amire: 
And that perceived lack of trust impacts our ability to do our jobs well. And as you've said earlier, you can't just tell people you trust them, you have to show them. And you have to be consistent. And you have to do that for everyone at every level of the company. And that's the definition of a high trust workplace. That's what that means. So what are some of the biggest mistakes executives make, when it comes to earning employee trust? 

Kim Jones: 
I can think of a couple of them. One might be that you say you want your team to come up with a recommendation, a solution for something. But yet, all along the while of that process of them coming to that recommendation, you're micromanaging, you're hovering over. You're inserting your own opinion, where maybe it might be best to let them do their thing, and then come on the back end, and then let's talk about it. Also, micromanaging sometimes I think is a bad habit that certainly undermines feeling trusted. 

And then maybe another one, and I've seen this within PwC, again, on the positive side of this. Is trusting people to do their work, and to do good work. Not just saying that you do, but showing that you do. And by that, a couple of things that we've done within our own organization is, let our employees decide how they want to work. The hours during the day that they want to work, hybrid virtual schedule, and if they're virtual, for example, again, not hovering over and making them prove that they're productive every minute of every day. But instead, focusing on what's most important. That's the outcomes of the work, the expectations of the role, what they're delivering, versus what specific hours are they working. And we've found that that has enhanced trust, and created a more positive environment overall, that people enjoy working in. More autonomy. These are professionals. Let them do what they do, and you'll be pleasantly pleased with the results. 

Roula Amire: 
So PwC, can employees choose where they work? If they want to work from home? 

Kim Jones: 
We have hybrid work.

Roula Amire: 
You do [inaudible 00:08:37]- 

Kim Jones: 
We have a small number of roles that are in-person roles every day, just by the nature of their work. Maybe they're taking care of the office facility. The vast majority of our roles are hybrid roles, where we like for people to be in an office or at a client site a certain amount of time, but then they can choose where they want to work the rest of that time. And then we have a number of roles, again, mostly based upon the requirements of the roles, that are virtual in nature. So my role, for example, is a virtual role. Now, we still encourage being in the office some, for events, when it makes sense, because we don't want to lose that sense of community by being in person. There's nothing else quite like it. But we also recognize there is fantastic work that gets done outside of the office, and it's okay. 

Roula Amire: 
Right. And they might do better work. 

Kim Jones: 
They might do better work if they're home. We've seen it happen. 

Roula Amire: 
Exactly. There was something called the pandemic- 

Kim Jones: 
Yeah, gosh. 

Roula Amire: 
... where we might've proved that to be true. 

Kim Jones: 
Yes. 

Roula Amire: 
We've seen that Trust often breaks down at the middle manager level, and programs that have the best intention, if they're not executed as you go down the organizational chart, by managers, they die on the vine. What are some ways middle managers can work on building trust with their teams? You mentioned don't micromanage, let people do their jobs. Are there some other things at the middle manager level that you might recommend, or what's working at PwC? 

Kim Jones: 
Yeah, and maybe I'd say a couple of things on that. First of all, I think it's so great that you brought out that middle manager group, because sometimes they are not thought about first in terms of how to drive strategy, or how to create culture, or how to enhance culture. In an organization, we tend to focus on our most senior leaders and what they're saying, a little bit of what they're doing, and the people who are creating the strategy. Sometimes we forget what a powerful lever that middle management group can be. 

And there are a few things. First of all, one of the things that we try to do at PwC, and are trying to do an even better job of it, is helping our managers see that they are part of driving the strategy. This is not, "Sit back and let's see what the leaders do for us." You are a leader now too, and it's part of your role to create the environment that we want. For you, your peers, and people who are more junior than you, for the whole firm. We all have a role to play. And in being active in that role to play, not only do they typically find their jobs more rewarding on a day-to-day basis, they tell us this all the time, and it's great to hear. But they also are, again, providing that role model for staff. Employees, for example, who are junior to them, to see how they behave and how they act and to observe. 

And even those junior staff, thinking about, "When I get to be a middle manager, this looks how I'm supposed to act and behave, and this is something that I'm learning as well." So that's something that I would say there. 

Roula Amire: 
In your report, in your survey, when you asked what would help build trust, a few things that were in there that we love at Great Place to Work, as well. Having input in important decisions, in-person team building, listening, career advancement. So really investing in your people, and almost co-creating the workplace experience, giving them a say in decisions that affect them. Why do you think that's hard for... I feel like middle managers, are they so busy? Do they not have time for check-ins? It often doesn't happen at a typical, or an average, workplace. Feeling heard, you say, listen to your people, but to do that, you have to make time to listen, ask them a question. Any best practices that you want to share on that? 

Kim Jones: 
Yeah, I think the reasons are everything you say. Sometimes we are so caught up, demands are piling up. We just feel like we just need to get it done. Particularly if you don't have a lot of experience working with some of the team members on your team, to know how they're going to deliver, experience and history with some of your team members can help with that as well. But it's everything that you just said. It's not micromanaging, letting your team go and do what they do, and have input into whatever that eventual recommendation or suggestion might be. That's a really great thing to do. 

And also, just understanding that, maybe you saw some folks senior to you not do it the way that you think needs to be done, and it's okay to deviate from that. You don't have to do it the way that you saw it be done before. You can go your own way in these things that we find in these surveys, and that we try to educate our people around new ways of leadership, and new ways of creating inspiration and motivation, and just high-performing work. We can try those things. We don't have to fall into what feels maybe comfortable, because it's what we experienced ourselves. So trying new ways of doing things, and seeing what works best. 

Roula Amire: 
And sometimes, becoming the manager you wish you always had. 

Kim Jones: 
There you go. Exactly. 

Roula Amire: 
Or the opposite. 

Kim Jones: 
Exactly. 

Roula Amire: 
If you didn't have a great experience, or model, if you loved a former manager, what they did that made you feel heard and welcomed. 

Let's talk about AI, because I love how you're using it at PwC, and one of the ways is to level the playing field. Your internal AI platform is called My Marketplace, and it matches people with jobs based on their skills, which is fantastic. Can you share an example, or tell us a little bit about how it gives employees new opportunities that they might not have had, otherwise? If AI didn't uncover that they had a skill set that is needed for the business?

Kim Jones: 
Yes. 

Roula Amire: 
They have an opportunity and the business benefits. 

Kim Jones: 
Yes, I am happy to do that. And I'll just say, we're even building broader uses for AI. My Marketplace is a big one, that we rolled out last fall. We also are building a new performance management process that incorporates some AI into that. And we also have an internal, I'm going to call it our internal ChatGPT, which we call ChatPwC. And we're really training our people, upskilling them on how to use that for efficiency, for a thought partner, or a brainstorming partner, that's easy access right there in your computer, to help solution all kinds of things. So we're broadening that umbrella. 

But you're correct, one of the first big new technologies that we rolled out called My Marketplace, and it's similar to what many of your listeners would understand as a talent marketplace. You're matching individuals, who have a profile that describes different skills, to job opportunities. We've built a platform that does use AI to more efficiently and more effectively do those match-ups. And in kind of a more fun, consumer oriented way, if you were to see our user interface, it's what we've become accustomed to, when we go online and we shop for something. It's been really fun to see. We've had some successes already, in terms of it being easier for people to understand, "What are other things that I could do within PwC?" I've been with PwC 30 years, and I'm telling you, it seems like every single day I discover something new that we do, because there's just such a wide range of different capabilities and skills, and projects, and engagement opportunities that we have. 

And so now, you talk about transparency. My Marketplace builds on that transparency by our people being able to go into My Marketplace and see the different opportunities that are available, and express interest in those opportunities, perhaps. Have the system match up with the skills that they already possess, and what this particular opportunity needs, and offer it up to you. Perhaps as, "Here's something you might be interested in. The work starts on this state and ends on this date, and here are the types of skills you'll be using." So it's a really cool thing that our people seem to enjoy, appreciate the ability to do, and it's really helped us move forward with using AI, and helping our people to develop. 

Roula Amire: 
Why do this? I mean, why is this important? Most companies don't have something like this. And they might say, "Well, it works just fine. We hire people, we promote people, we know our people." But this is how companies are leading the way in creating a more equitable workplace. 

Kim Jones: 
It does. 

Roula Amire: 
So convince the, let's say skeptical listener, on why this is really important for businesses. 

Kim Jones: 
Well, what's interesting, and I'll use PwC as an example. We have 75,000 people, and what tends to happen is, you know who you've worked with in the past, and who did a great job working with you in the past. And you tend to want to go back to those people. Because that's who you know. When there might be 74,500 other people that you don't know who might also be really great to work with. And so you're right, using the technology that is not based on who you know, but based on skills and based on what you need for an opportunity. You are served up new names, new individuals that maybe you didn't even know existed in the firm, quite frankly, before that moment. So in that way, opportunity feels very democratized, and we're thrilled about that. 

To your question of why do this, one of the things that we try to always be doing within PwC is forecasting the future, so to speak. Or at least trying to understand what the trends will be in the future, and trying to make sure that we're ready for whatever that is. And when you say, "My current system works just fine, I don't have anything like a Marketplace." Okay, perhaps, but for how long will it work just fine? Next year at this point in time, will you still be saying that? Five years from now, will you still be saying that? And on the day when you stop saying that, how far behind are you in now getting yourself ready for whatever that current environment is? So I would challenge the thinking, there. 

And I would also challenge, "It feels like it's working fine," because it's all you know. But what if it could work 10 times better? What if it could? Just, what if? And just going through at least the mental exercise of reimagining the way that you do things, to see if you could perhaps do it much, much better. I think there's almost always opportunity to do something better. 

Roula Amire: 

Yeah, that's great. If our CEO Michael Bush was in the room, he'd be giving you lots of high-fives. He absolutely believes this is the future of work. When we talk about the future of work, it's this. Where do you want to be five years, 10 years down the line? You've got to be starting now, and generative AI is the way, if used properly and used in the right hands. And used for things like this, where you're not hiring based on degree, who you know, and all those things.

Kim Jones: 
And I'll say to that, too, everyone's talking about AI and generative AI. It takes some practice. You have to get in there and get hands on, and just do things in it, so that you can really understand the capability, how to draw out that capability, how to have it do things that at first you didn't imagine it could do. I'm in that phase right now personally, playing around with a lot of it. I was just telling my daughter over the weekend that I've become obsessed with ChatGPT and ChatPwC, that tells me everything from how to take care of my plants, to helps me think of ideas for dinner that I hadn't thought of before, using three ingredients that happen to be in my refrigerator. I mean, it's just amazing what it can do. It's a lot of fun, so I encourage people to just get in there and start playing with it, if nothing else. 

Roula Amire: 
Yep. Try it. Be curious. 

Kim Jones: 
Just try it. Try it. You'll like it. 

Roula Amire: 
What advice would you go back and give your younger self? 

Kim Jones: 
So I love this question, because it makes me think, I'll mention my daughter again. She just graduated college a couple of years ago, and she has started her career, and it takes me back to when I started my career and hearing some of her questions, and seeing some of the things that she's thinking about and doing. It really does take me back. She and I have this thing where every month, I share with her three lessons that I've learned over my 30-year career that I wish I'd known my first six months of work. Which is what she's in now. 

Roula Amire: 
You're sharing with her every month, of her first six months? 

Kim Jones: 
Yeah. Every- 

Roula Amire: 
That's amazing. 

Kim Jones: 
... every month. And it's been fun for me to think about, "What are the lessons I've learned that would be good to share?" So I can share just a couple of them with you here now. 

So one of the most important ones to me, and the very first one that I shared with her is, how crucial it is to have a learner's mindset. And by that I mean what most of us would think, but I also mean especially for someone starting off new in their career, if it were my younger self, asking questions is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. It doesn't make it seem like you don't know what you're doing, or you don't know what you're talking about. It makes it seem like you're curious to learn, and you want to learn, and you want to do a good job. And it's so much better to ask questions that you think might be basic earlier on, versus six or eight months down the road when your supervisors expect you would have known that by now. You get a certain amount of grace when you first start out, so leverage that, and it's okay to ask lots of questions and just soak as much in as you can. Learn. Just learn. 

And then the second thing that I think is so important, and this is for starting off in a career, or anytime in your career, is just how key relationships are. How critical they are, and how much they add to your own experience, working. We spend so many of our years working in our lives, and the relationships are so crucial and so critical to getting enjoyment out of our work, feeling rewarded, creating sometimes lifelong very special relationships with friends, with people. And even learning, sometimes you learn things pertinent to your job, in places that you didn't expect to, just because you have a network of individuals who you are friendly with, who you talk to. So the relationships are really important. Even finding out about new opportunities. You know this, right? But that's something that I would tell my younger self, as well. 

And then maybe the last thing is, and I told my daughter this, "Live for today, but plan for tomorrow." And live for today means, yes, be caught up in all the things. Be in the now. That's very important. But also don't let so much time go by that later, you wish you had invested in your 401K, or you had learned a certain skill at your job that would be so helpful to you, but you sort of put it off. Just think about today, but also think about tomorrow and what might be helpful then, that you wish you had done. So those are some of my words of wisdom. 

Roula Amire: 
I love those. I love those. Particularly I love the asking questions. 

Kim Jones: 
It's important. 

Roula Amire: 
It is.

Kim Jones: 
Throughout our career, but especially when you're just starting out, yeah. 

Roula Amire: 
It is. Because you don't think you should- 

Kim Jones: 
Exactly. 

Roula Amire: 
... you think you should know- 

Kim Jones: 
You think you should know. 

Roula Amire: 
... and then, you shouldn't suffer, and can't figure it out. So I love that one. Is there a book or podcast you'd recommend to your peers? 

Kim Jones: 
Yes, and I have recommended it to peers. I talk about it with my team all the time, they're probably tired of hearing me talk about it, but I love it so much. So every morning my staple is the New York Times, The Daily, the podcast called The Daily. I notice that it's often at the top of the list in the Apple podcast platform, is they're showing the most popular webcast or highly rated, or something like that. But it's really good. I appreciate how they pull a topic out of the headlines, and they dive deeper, and they explain it in ways that you don't need to be the world's greatest intellectual to understand. And they really make you think about things in what seems to me to be a very balanced way. And I just enjoy it a lot. 

Roula Amire: 
That's also in my queue of pods- 

Kim Jones: 
Is it? 

Roula Amire: 
... and it's good to just know what's going on in the world around you. That's the why. 

Kim Jones: 
Yes. 

Roula Amire: 
And then, it's quick. How do you create a sense of well-being for yourself? 

Kim Jones:
This is something that I pay a lot of attention to. And even more so the last 18 months, couple of years. I was that person for the first, gosh, what, 20 years of my career? The hard charging, feeling like I was thriving in a very demanding environment, which PwC is very fast-paced, high pressure projects. But also got a lot of reward from performing well, and having a great team, and riding that high performer wave, so to speak. And there were times when I would just sort of be like, "Okay, I got five more things to do. Yeah, only going to get five hours of sleep tonight, but it's fine. I'll be able to catch up on the weekend." I was that person.

And I tell you, I was blowing and going and doing great, until all of a sudden one day, I was not. One day. That was September 20th, 2022. And I had a full day of meetings, several presentations, all of them fairly high pressure. And at the end of the day, I realized all of a sudden that I couldn't remember part of the day. 

Roula Amire: 
Wow. 

Kim Jones: 
I didn't remember a couple of the presentations I'd done. And it was very scary. Of course, right? 

Roula Amire: 
Mm-hmm. 

Kim Jones: 
So I have a little health episode. Got all checked out, short version of a longer story, I'm fine. But what I learned from that is, your body keeps the score, and your body will tell you. Even if your brain thinks you are doing your thing and you are fine, there can come a point where, it'll be a huge surprise but it will happen, that you will stop. You will stop. So that happened with me, and like I said, it was very scary. And after that, I thought that was very, very important to be in tune with my body, and to practice self-care, well-being, much more intentionally and much more deliberately. So I do things like eat well, now. Not all the time, but I try my best to eat well, exercise on a regular basis. I'm exercising right now. I have my next half-marathon coming up in Kauai. 

Roula Amire: 
Amazing. Congratulations. 

Kim Jones: 
Yeah, I feel like every time I say it out loud, it makes me more accountable to make sure I actually do it, so I have that coming up. So that has me in the gym quite a bit. 

Sleep is very, very important to me. And so I make sure I get seven to eight hours of sleep pretty much without fail. And I see now, having done that on a regular basis, what a difference it makes. I'm just a huge believer in that, now. 

All the way to the other types of things, spending time with friends, and having fun, and resting. Giving myself permission to rest. I used to sort of feel guilty to just sit and watch Netflix for a while, but sometimes you just need rest, and it makes you better for the times when it's active. I've learned all of this. 

So I do a lot of things. I enjoy nature. I enjoy looking at flowers, or listening to music, and just not taking those things for granted and really appreciating them. So there are a number of things that I do.

Roula Amire: 
Well, there's another book recommendation called Your Body Keeps the Score. 

Kim Jones: 
I know of that book. Yes. 

Roula Amire: 
Pick it up- 

Kim Jones: 
I know. 

Roula Amire: 
... we all should read it, because it will. 

Kim Jones: 
I know. It's so true. 

Roula Amire: 
It is very true. We had Jen Fisher on from Deloitte, and she shared her very similar story of burnout. Deloitte also fast pace, high performing. And just, one day, she could not get out of bed. She was burnt, clinically burnt out. And now she's the chief well-being officer at Deloitte. And they said, "If you're feeling this way, probably other people here are." And it's really modeling that behavior, especially at the senior executive level as we talked about. Not just how you should lead, but how you should take care of yourself. It's okay to take PTO, it's okay to end the day at the end of the day. 

Kim Jones: 
And how that is not a sign of weakness. It is actually a sign of strength, for you knowing enough to know how to keep your yourself in that top performing space. 

Roula Amire: 
And that's honestly what I've learned from doing this podcast. When I asked this question of very accomplished senior leaders, I hear meditation, I hear reading at night. Not reading business books. Ending the day when I should. If they're on an airplane, they power off. They use that time for downtime. And if they're doing that, that's keys to success that not many people talk about and share, because you think you should be going, going, going, but you will end up on a burnout table. 

Kim Jones: 
And I'll tell you some people, I think, and I can speak for myself, afraid to maybe dial back some of the behaviors that were toxic for me. Because, "Then I won't perform as well, and then I won't-" 

Roula Amire: 
Exactly. 

Kim Jones: 
... "be able to do this." I am telling you, after I was kind of forced, like my body said, "You have to do this, because you don't want this to happen again." What I've discovered is there's not been one bit of detriment to me in career, in performance ratings, in what people think of me, none of that. Which has been- 

Roula Amire: 
If anything, it's probably the opposite. 

Kim Jones: 
Yes. So it's been incredibly freeing, to see that. 

Roula Amire: 
That is true. Has there been a challenge you faced within the last year, either personally or professionally, and what did you learn about yourself that might be different than burnout and well-being? 

Kim Jones: 
I have a couple. So I want to pull one from the work world, and one from the personal world. And then I would like to tie them together, because they're tied together. 

So in the work world, I would say the biggest challenge has been simply the day to day of leading 25 individuals across six teams, that do a variety of different things. And keeping all the balls in the air, or trying to, every day. A lot of different things that I need to think about, different subjects, different topics, different issues, a lot of different people that I deal with every day. And it can get to be overwhelming if you're not intentional about how you go about doing it. So I would say that that is a challenge, that's been over the past year, and is kind of ongoing. It's one of those, though, that I love. Because the work that I do is so rewarding. 

I talk to my team and we say this, "Our job is to bring sunshine to our employees every day." We're all about trying to create the greatest work environment, work experience, culture within PwC, that we can for our people. And that's a really fun job to have. So I don't mind it at all, but it can be a challenge, because it's a lot on a day in and day out basis. I could not do it without having a fabulous team, very competent, very skilled, but more importantly, very passionate and very caring about each other as a team. We pick someone up when they need it, and two months later maybe somebody else needs a little support. We do that for each other. But also being passionate about our employees, some of whom we don't know, we may never know. 75,000 people. But as a group, we care about the people who work at PwC, and being able to try to do good things for them, that mitigates or makes the challenge feel very, very worth it. 

What I learned about myself in that is that, even in all of that, I do have to set my own personal boundaries. There is a time to be all in, with all that I just described. And then for me, there is a time to pull away, and do some of those self-care things we were talking about. Go and put my brain on something else, which in the end makes me better when I'm all in at work, I feel. But that was something I had to learn. Because I kind of thought I needed to be all in 24/7, seven days a week. So there was that. 

And then from the personal standpoint, this is a clear one to mention, I sadly lost my mom last August. So that was one of the biggest personal challenges I've ever had in my entire life, quite frankly. And still miss her greatly, greatly, of course. What I learned from that experience was the need to sometimes completely pull out of work, for example, the things that go on in my typical day. And focus on some other things, like myself, my own grief. My family, supporting my dad, who's now a widower. Those kinds of things. And I tie it back to work because part of what helped me feel like I could do that was the support of my firm, and my team, to let me do that. They even said they were proud of me for doing that, and I was like, "Proud. Now that's an interesting..." I had to think about that one for a minute. 

And it was part of this being able to let go, trusting them to do what they needed to do, going back to that trust concept that we talked about, and just having the faith that it's okay. And it was okay, and I was able to do what I needed to do, and it was a big lesson for me. And I hope for them as well, to see that, "You can do that when you need to, and we will all support you until you come back. The firm will support you, as well." 

Roula Amire: 
That should really be the new quote, unquote, "power move." A leader who can step away. It's powerful, it's an example to the team, and you're taking care of yourself. I mean, obviously after losing a parent, that's the natural response, is to take time off to care for yourself. But I think just in general, that is something that more leaders should do. 

Kim Jones:
encourage them to, because I do know of leaders who don't do that, who feel like they have to get back. And it just seems like that would be so hard, and my heart goes out to them, but I was away for several weeks. I'm not talking about five days, here. 

Roula Amire: 
Days. 

Kim Jones:
I was away for several weeks, and I did what I needed to do to get the personal life kind of back on the steady track, and make sure my dad was okay and all of that. And then I came right back in. 

Roula Amire: 
And you were okay. 

Kim Jones: 
And that I was okay. Yes, yes. 

Roula Amire: 
Right. 

Kim Jones: 
But yeah, I learned a lot through that. I feel changed after that experience. On the face of it, I don't have my mom anymore, clearly. But also just from seeing what I was able to do, what the firm allowed me to do, and how I was able to reenter and pick up where I left off. And everything's been great, since. 

Roula Amire: 
And going back to what we first talked about, you could do that because of, you're in a high trust workplace. You can do that because of the culture that's at PwC. 

Kim Jones: 
Yes. 

Roula Amire: 
A lot of other executives feel like they have to get back because they might be told they have to get back. They can't. Or they don't trust their teams to do the work. That's what trust looks like- 

Kim Jones: 
Yeah. 

Roula Amire: 
... that you can do that. 

Kim Jones: 
Yes. Thank you for making me think about it that way. And again, I go back to my team, fantastic. When I couldn't take it anymore, I'd have to know what's happening at work, they would indulge me for a little bit. But they wouldn't overwhelm. They were very sensitive about that. They checked on me. We do video calls, just to check on each other a little bit, during that time. My boss Yolanda Seals-Coffield, our Chief People Officer, was fabulous. She would check on me from time to time, say nothing about, "We can't wait for you to get back to work," nothing of that. It was all about, "How are you? Are you okay? Is there anything you need? What can I do?" Just truly heartfelt. I mean, it was beautiful, really. It really was. 

Roula Amire: 
And we all know managers who have checked in on how you're doing, and what they're really asking is, "When are you coming back?"

Kim Jones: 
Yes. "When will you be back?" 

Roula Amire: 
That's the translation. So when it's not that, when it's a true expression of care, it lands different. It's so different- 

Kim Jones: 
Oh, my goodness. 

Roula Amire: 
... because it's so genuine and caring, and absolutely not about the workplace. I hope for everyone, every listener, they can find themselves in a high trust, a great workplace. 

Kim Jones: 
Help create it, if it's not the- 

Roula Amire: 
And help to create it. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you, Kim. Thanks for the conversation. I really enjoyed it. 

Kim Jones: 
Me too. Thank you so much. 

Roula Amire: 
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