Grit: A Cornerstone of For All Leadership

Michael (00:12):

So I'm going to save myself a little email time.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (00:15):

Oh good. You're going to give me my feedback. Hold on.

Michael (00:18):

Yes.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (00:18):

Hold on.

Michael (00:19):

People at Great Places to Work, say If you ask Michael for feedback, you better buckle up.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (00:23):

Okay. Okay.

Michael (00:24):

All right. Just better buckle up. Give Angela the feedback right now. There you go.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (00:24):

That's cheating.

Michael (00:24):

There you go.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (00:40):

Thank you. By the way, people learn from positive feedback too, but you already knew that.

Michael (00:44):

There you go. There you go. So Angela, we're grit fanatics at Great Place To Work. I mean, book clubs and so on.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (00:53):

Oh, I did not know that. Okay.

Michael (00:54):

Yeah. Grit fanatics.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (00:56):

It's an honor.

Michael (00:57):

So I just want to start with how does it feel to have Pete Carroll, one of the most successful coaches in history and others now talking about this word in a way that it wasn't talked about before you wrote your book?

Dr. Angela Duckworth (01:11):

Okay, I'm going to share with you my last text message to Pete, which was like 26 hours ago.

Michael (01:16):

Hey, are you name dropping right now?

Dr. Angela Duckworth (01:18):

Well, you did it already.

Michael (01:18):

Just like my text...

Dr. Angela Duckworth (01:20):

Well, first I started it and then you... Yeah, but I don't have Barack Obama on speed dial. Then I'm really going to name drop.

Michael (01:27):

Okay. Well, that's true.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (01:28):

Okay, so I do want to share with you... because you know Pete retired, and so we're like texting back and forth. One thing that's very relevant to your work, he absolutely believes that this culture building, that this value setting, this ritual setting, he's like, "oh yeah, it's not just football. It should be where everybody works." So that's the first thing to say that he absolutely believes these are malleable elements of culture that you shape with intention. But, here, was the text message, because he was like, "oh, it's the Grit Camps... Work with kids." And I was like, "I'm writing a book, hold on. But as soon as I'm done, I'll fly out to Seattle." But this is the last thing I said, I was like, "Pete, you know well, I didn't teach you anything about grit. You already knew it." So that was the last text message I sent him.

(02:17):

I do want to say this, I think that truly great leaders actually have so much of what I shared with the graphs and the science and the data collection. They have it intuitively. Kind of like some people never went to cooking school, but wow, are they great cooks. I think so much of culture development and intentionality and what you are doing is that maybe not everybody has it all in their heads intuitively. You never had to teach them. I think that's, to me, what's so exciting is that when you can formalize it, when you can give language to it, when you can ritualize it, we can systematize it. Well, then you don't have to be the one in a million people who didn't need anything to know that there's tremendous power in a growth mindset or that purpose is a great motivator.

(03:05):

So I told Pete, I hadn't taught him anything, but he agrees with me. And I guess that's why we're texting about the intentionality of it, about the systemization of it. And I think that brings us all higher and closer to our potential.

Michael (03:18):

A little bit later today, we're going to have Dr. Daniel Wendler talk to us and help us on our journey that we're really all beginning most of us on understanding what it's like to be neurodivergent.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (03:29):

Neurodiversity. Yeah.

Michael (03:32):

Okay. And so we're all beginning the journey. We're going to launch a little bit later today. But as I've listened to his story, which he's going to share with us today, I hear him talk about a couple of people who really influenced his life. And I've heard you talk about guardian angels.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (03:52):

Yeah.

Michael (03:52):

So I'd like you to share a little about grit stories that you've researched and this concept-

Dr. Angela Duckworth (03:59):

... of guardian angels. I think we all need a guardian angel TBH. I really do. And what do I mean by that? Well, I shared that swimmer's story, the swimmer who wanted to quit on a bad day and whose parents didn't let him. I think what a guardian angel to me is what scientists say are mentors, and I use that term guardian angel, partly because these people really do sometimes feel like divine intervention because you can have this life trajectory that's going like this or like this or like this. And these angels sort of lift you up.

(04:34):

On the psychology of this, first, I'll say that when you look at resilience. Resilience in the face of poverty or adversity of any kind, the number one predictor is to have a singular relationship with that mentor, with that guardian angel, who is loyal to you, who has faith in you, who sees what you cannot see yourself, and who is in it for the long haul. So that's one little tidbit from science.

(05:02):

The second thing I want to share with you, I know Michael, you have other questions, is if there's one misunderstanding, I think there is about mentorship, because you talk to any 22 year-old, they kind of have heard somewhere that mentors are great. They've watched the Academy Awards acceptance speeches. They know that there are people in your life who make a difference. But here's the one thing that I think a lot of people misunderstand.

(05:25):

Mentors are made. They don't just drop out of heaven. What I mean by that is you can proactively, intentionally, thoughtfully create these relationships in your life and not just wait for the good luck to have some person notice you. I think if there's one lesson that I keep preaching to young people is that it is a relationship. That means you got to meet them. That means you got to give and take. What can I do for you, Dr. Duckworth? You can read my latest book draft and tell me the things I should fix. That would be wonderful. It would be my honor. Right? You text that person every few months. I get texts from my mentees like, "Hey, just want to let you know I ended up moving to San Francisco. I took a new job." I showed you my text thread with Cody Coleman. I needed to show Michael, Cody's girlfriend. He's going to put a ring on it. You heard it here first. I was like, "Cody, I met her. We're good. We're done."

(06:26):

And so look, that's a relationship. I met that kid. He was graduating from MIT. He didn't know me. I didn't know him. Now we're family. I'll do anything for Cody Coleman. I told you that backstage. I was like, "I will do anything for Cody Coleman. I will fly across the country and do his laundry if that's what Cody Coleman needs, if he's having that kind of a bad day." So that's what I mean by mentorships. It's a relationship with somebody who's a little farther down the path and you're just as meaningful to them as they are to you. And make one, don't wait for one, make one.

Michael (06:59):

Yeah. And the flip side, I mean like you describing what you're willing to do for Cody, I think that's the powerful part of the message. We can all be guardian angels.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (07:08):

Exactly right. And Cody, by the way, did give a TEDx talk. He was in his final year at Stanford in his PhD. And here's the epilogue on Cody. Cody received his PhD from Stanford in computer science. When he did, he was one of a handful of black PhD students to ever have obtained that credential from Stanford University. I think the first in 20 years. While he was at Stanford getting his PhD... Now he's on his way to being a tech billionaire. But now at the point that he was at Stanford, he gives this TED talk, and it was all about mentorship. It was all about how anybody can be a guardian angel. You don't have to be rich, you don't have to be anything. You just have to care. Finally, because I know you Michael, I'll just say his tagline is Cody for President.

Michael (08:01):

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (08:01):

And yeah, he has my vote.

Michael (08:03):

We need him to think about that quickly.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (08:05):

Yeah. How about...

(08:12):

For example? Yes. We'll try to accelerate that.

Michael (08:12):

Yeah, that's what we need to do.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (08:12):

I'll tell him that.

Michael (08:19):

Forget about the laundry. You need to fly out there for that.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (08:21):

Yeah.

Michael (08:24):

Okay? All right. Just got one more Angela. One of the things we're all trying to get better. We're all trying to change, which is uncomfortable. Everybody loves to talk about it. Nobody likes to do it. But it's critical based on what you talked about. We want to change the world. We want it to be very different. And the thing that really inspired me about your book... That lit me up and put me on fire and my people said, I yelled at them for an hour on a zoom about the book... Is in my life's experience, the people who are not in executive chambers in executive rooms, generally speaking, the people who are not there,

Dr. Angela Duckworth (09:07):

Which is most people.

Michael (09:08):

... underrepresented people, have grit.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (09:12):

Ah, okay, now I see where you're going. Yeah.

Michael (09:14):

Okay.

Dr. Angela Duckworth (09:14):

Yeah.

Michael (09:15):

So you want to take that a step or two further if you want. So the other thing I wanted you to talk a little bit about is consistency and changing habits so you can-

Dr. Angela Duckworth (09:25):

Okay, so since this is the last question, and you know we talked about this, Michael, but the first thing I thought of when I thought a great place to work, why is that so important?

(09:36):

Grit is not enough. This is what the second book is about. I think this will address the question of like, who's not in the boardroom? Who's not in the C-suite and what faces and what colors and what backgrounds are not being represented? So here's what I mean by grit is not enough. I kind of started off my career showing the talent wasn't enough. You also need grit. But guess what? Grit's not enough. You need a great place to be. And here's why. This is what the second book is about. It's about-

Michael (10:01):

You want to say that one more time?

Dr. Angela Duckworth (10:04):

You're like, can you look at the camera and say that one more time? Well, let me say it this way.

(10:10):

My second book is going to be called Easier: A Better Way to Be Your Best. It's an allusion to Maya Angelou who said, "do your best and then when you know better, do better." And here's what I'm learning about achievement and excellence and potential. And here's why I don't think grit is enough. You can't get anywhere in life without that mentor. You can't get anywhere in a toxic culture that doesn't see you, that doesn't respect your perspective, even when that perspective can be a little challenging for some others in that group.

(10:47):

I think even at the most elemental level, physically, there are sometimes physical impediments to what a person can access or not access. So in every way from the trivial to the sublime, I think there are ways in which to express the grit you have and to develop the grit that you can have. You need a great place to be. In a way you could consider a great place is another title that I could have for this book. And when I look at the science on this, when I look at the people who do win the Nobel Prize, who go to the Olympics and medal, or the equivalent on what they do, there's not a single example of one of those years where you can't look not only at them, but then you see their context and you see that support.

(11:36):

I think when you have a truly great place to work, it is a great place for all. And here's the other thing, and maybe I'll end on this, Michael. Sometimes people see trade-offs like, well, either this or that. Either you care about grit or you care about a supportive workplace. No, no, no. There's no trade-off. You have one and the other. They feed each other synergistically.

(11:57):

I also want to say this about representation. Sometimes people think, well, either you care about equity or you care about individual excellence. Either you care about the system or you believe in individual agency and responsibility. Uh-uh-uh. That's not what the research say. The research says these things go together. When individuals have agency and feel safe, they'll contribute to a positive culture. If there is a positive culture, people will have individual agency and feel safe. So I think there's too much either-or thinking in this country, in general. And if I had another title for the book, it would be all of the above.

Michael (12:36):

Give a warm thank you to Dr. Angela-

Dr. Angela Duckworth (12:37):

Thank you.